curious... sub vs. slave?

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Horadell -> curious... sub vs. slave? (9/14/2006 9:06:02 PM)
I have posted a question with the same title in ask a sub/slave, but the question I am asking here is completely different, and I am looking for a different group of people to answer it, obviously. Where in my other question, I was asking, how does a sub/slave really come to understand if they are a sub/slave, here what I am trying to find out... How does someone make the determination that they would rather have a slave than a submissive, or submissive rather than slave? And of course, most importantly, If you would rather have a submissive, but the person you are already with, and exploring the lifestyle with, wants to fill the slave role, (or the other way around, wanting slave, only getting sub) How would you go about that? Has anyone been in this situation before? I would rather avoid the obvious answers, if possible, (Hah! Easy! kick her to the curb and go after what you want!) as I do love her very much, and I don't simply want to be rid of her because she isn't perfectly what I want right now, because really, I don't quite know. As honest as I can be... Am I ready for D/s? I don't know. I hope I am, but I will not know until I am try. I do know that what being dominant means to me, may not be what being dominant means to someone else. Am I looking for a D/s? Maybe, again, I don't really know. I know I don't want a Vanilla relationship, but I do not know exactly how far I want to, or can actually handle, taking it. Could I really be in search of M/s? Possibly, again, I don't know. I don't have the experience neccessary to answer my own question, hence why I am asking here. How did any of you, Dom/me's or Master/Mistresses, finally come to the decision that you wanted to be what you are? and not something else...

amayos -> RE: curious... sub vs. slave? (9/14/2006 9:25:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Horadell How does someone make the determination that they would rather have a slave than a submissive, or submissive rather than slave? And of course, most importantly, If you would rather have a submissive, but the person you are already with, and exploring the lifestyle with, wants to fill the slave role, (or the other way around, wanting slave, only getting sub) How would you go about that? As honest as I can be... Am I ready for D/s? I don't know. I hope I am, but I will not know until I am try. I do know that what being dominant means to me, may not be what being dominant means to someone else. Am I looking for a D/s? Maybe, again, I don't really know. I know I don't want a Vanilla relationship, but I do not know exactly how far I want to, or can actually handle, taking it. Could I really be in search of M/s? Possibly, again, I don't know. I don't have the experience neccessary to answer my own question, hence why I am asking here. How did any of you, Dom/me's or Master/Mistresses, finally come to the decision that you wanted to be what you are? and not something else... The answer, in my experience, will become self-evident in time. Personally, I prefer the full commitment and adoration that comes with slaves. There is indeed a difference between "submissive" and "slave," and it's important to understand it clearly. Earlier today I read a line of text which spoke of "looking before you leap" in these matters. It was simple, succinct advise.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: curious... sub vs. slave? (9/14/2006 9:40:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Horadell How does someone make the determination that they would rather have a slave than a submissive, or submissive rather than slave? Time, deciding which definitions and processes work for you. quote: If you would rather have a submissive, but the person you are already with, and exploring the lifestyle with, wants to fill the slave role, (or the other way around, wanting slave, only getting sub) How would you go about that? See if it's a problem of language and definitions versus ACTUAL difference in how you view the relationship foundations. If it's not just a language problem, you'll have to see whether those differences are key or whether they can be melded together. It's like any compatibility issue. quote: Am I ready for D/s? I don't know. I hope I am, but I will not know until I am try. I do know that what being dominant means to me, may not be what being dominant means to someone else. Am I looking for a D/s? Did you really read any of the advice you've been given in the other threads you've started? How many people now have told you to take it slow, DATE, EXPLORE, DON'T MAKE COMMITMENTS. And here you are again seriously wondering. Supposedly even with someone very committed to you with very likely self-estreem issues. quote: How did any of you, Dom/me's or Master/Mistresses, finally come to the decision that you wanted to be what you are? and not something else... I decided what type of relationship I wanted. I didn't care about labels. When exploring around and looking at labels AFTER realizing what type of relationship I wanted, those seemed to work best for me. http://www.collarchat.com/m_515303/mpage_1/key_slave/tm.htm#515333 What is the difference? http://www.collarchat.com/m_308296/mpage_1/key_slave%252Csub/tm.htm#309867 sub or slave? http://www.collarchat.com/m_342405/mpage_1/key_slave%252Csub/tm.htm#342794 ~slave vs sub~ http://www.collarchat.com/m_410567/mpage_1/key_slave%252Csub/tm.htm#410982 slave or sub http://www.collarchat.com/m_497775/mpage_1/key_submissive%252Cslave/tm.htm#497977 I'm new to this but... http://www.collarchat.com/m_366860/mpage_1/key_slave%252Csub/tm.htm#366893 Difference bet/submission and slave? http://www.collarchat.com/m_365776/mpage_1/key_sub%252Cslave/tm.htm#366767 slub question http://www.collarchat.com/m_281198/mpage_1/key_slave%252Csub/tm.htm#281512 difference between slave and submissive http://www.collarchat.com/m_251014/mpage_1/key_sub%252Cslave/tm.htm#251062 definition of "slave" What's the difference between slaves and submissives? Submissive or slave? Slaves versus submissive Submissive or slave? (2) Submissive vs slave (2)

Rule -> RE: curious... sub vs. slave? (9/14/2006 9:47:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Horadell How does someone make the determination that they would rather have a slave than a submissive, or submissive rather than slave? How does one decide whether to acquire a horse or a zebra? A slave obeys or is controlled and a sub submits. They may look like similar creatures, but they are three very different types of person. My advice: accept what the universe provides you with. quote: ORIGINAL: Horadell And of course, most importantly, If you would rather have a submissive, but the person you are already with, and exploring the lifestyle with, wants to fill the slave role, (or the other way around, wanting slave, only getting sub) How would you go about that? Separate and find a new mate. One cannot change a horse into a zebra or vice versa. That would be a bad paint job. quote: ORIGINAL: Horadell I don't simply want to be rid of her because she isn't perfectly what I want right now, because really, I don't quite know. One may train someone, but that always has to be in agreement with their nature. Usually, in vanilla, it is impossible to change someone significantly. quote: ORIGINAL: Horadell How did any of you, Dom/me's or Master/Mistresses, finally come to the decision that you wanted to be what you are? and not something else... How did you decide to become born as a male and as a heterosexual? Only bisexuals can choose between a heterosexual or a homosexual behaviour. That does not make him or her a heterosexual or a homosexual, though: they still are bisexual. I have no experience at all, but there are certain women that rub me the wrong way. I feel a strong urge and need to correct and command such women. I am convinced that these women are natural slaves. So: what do you feel? Or are you not a natural, but a vanilla that is just playing with domination and submission?

SirDaniel -> RE: curious... sub vs. slave? (9/14/2006 9:48:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Horadell How did any of you, Dom/me's or Master/Mistresses, finally come to the decision that you wanted to be what you are? and not something else... To answer all of your questions each and every one of us would have to write a book. How does a muscian know they love to play the insurment? How does a painter know they love to paint? It comes from with in. They are called feelings and they are neither right nor wrong. They just are.

Horadell -> RE: curious... sub vs. slave? (9/14/2006 9:50:55 PM)
Hah... You've got me pegged! Seriously.... I can honestly say, whenever my mind goes wandering, LA has been there to point, Right there! Im not trying to be sarcastic... I really do mean that. I have listened to a lot of the advise. I am trying to take it slow, but for me, slow is just another word with a definition defined as often as it is interpreted. I have this insatiable desire... and that desire is knowledge. I know a LOT about myself... even if I do not want to admit it... I know that most things will come, as they always do, with experience, but I am also in this saying, as much as LA, and everyone else has said, don't get committed... I am already, to an extent. I came here, to this site, committed. And to tell me simply, not to make a commitment, well... I already made one. Whether or not I should make any more? I doubt I will for some time now... but one thing is for sure. I do not want to make an uninformed decision. My greatest failing, if one can call it that, is that I wonder about almost everything. I question most everything... what makes a person tick? What makes a person think one way or the other? What makes ME think one way or another? Psychology has, and always will be one of the most interesting things to me... but beyond that... I want to know for people who have been there, and made the choices... What brought you into that role? Experience? What kind of experience? Just me, and my insatiable curiosity. I do really <3 you LA, you always have the most informative postings full of all sorts of links to keep me occupied for hours.

mstrjx -> RE: curious... sub vs. slave? (9/15/2006 2:16:29 AM)
Well, coming from a vanilla that is just playing with domination and submission and has been for 15 years, my conclusion is a little different. My interests were within me as a small child. From what I recall from your self-exposure, you are similar in that respect. But it was not until I shed the insecurities of wondering whether I wanted to explore these interests haphazardly (when I found a partner who I could share my interests with no thought of response) and decided that I would just 'be' who/what I wanted to be and find partners specifically with the same purpose that I matured. You wonder whether you want this or that. You wonder whether your partner needs to be this or that. You wonder whether you can go the extra mile to becoming an owner rather than a dominant. I don't question your overthinking. Many of us do that. But thinking and committing to a decision are two different things. I made that commitment to myself, and not once have I wavered. But I still think a lot of things. Right now I'm thinking I'm still just a vanilla boy running around playing with other people's emotions. Somebody's going to have to pay for that thought. Jeff

Kinkypupper -> RE: curious... sub vs. slave? (9/15/2006 9:19:53 AM)
a Submissive has a choice, a slave has given the ability of choice over to their master willingly and fully. Thing of it this was... When you play do you have a safeword ?? now think of a relationship where the trust and commitment is so great that even the idea of a safeword is just wrong.

Phoenixandnika -> RE: curious... sub vs. slave? (9/15/2006 9:40:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kinkypupper a Submissive has a choice, a slave has given the ability of choice over to their master willingly and fully. Thing of it this was... When you play do you have a safeword ?? now think of a relationship where the trust and commitment is so great that even the idea of a safeword is just wrong. That is YOUR idea of what defines a person as a slave or as a submissive. To me that is the true issue, that each of us hold our own defitions and meanings of those words and ideas of what makes someone slave or submissive.

MrDiscipline44 -> RE: curious... sub vs. slave? (9/15/2006 9:55:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kinkypupper a Submissive has a choice, a slave has given the ability of choice over to their master willingly and fully. Thing of it this was... When you play do you have a safeword ?? now think of a relationship where the trust and commitment is so great that even the idea of a safeword is just wrong. I think this is the first thing you've ever written, Phil, that I can and do agree with. Hmmm, hell must be causing that frost on the ground up here.

Wolfie648 -> RE: curious... sub vs. slave? (9/16/2006 4:05:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Horadell Where in my other question, I was asking, how does a sub/slave really come to understand if they are a sub/slave, here what I am trying to find out... The same way you found out if you were a dom or owner or sub or slave. Experience. ( I mean I knew from birth didn't you;-) JK I didn't know what I was until 29. But then I had an unusual relationship with the world at large; still do. quote: How does someone make the determination that they would rather have a slave than a submissive, or submissive rather than slave? They make up their minds. All on their own. Like a big boy or girl. Possibly even an adult. quote: And of course, most importantly, If you would rather have a submissive, but the person you are already with, and exploring the lifestyle with, wants to fill the slave role, (or the other way around, wanting slave, only getting sub) How would you go about that? Let the poor slave go - after finding a suitable place for it to be. Got a sub? Need a slave? Let the poor sub go - whilst helping him/her find a new dom/me. How would I go about that? I'd start talking to people who want to own people. Or want to dom/me people. But that's just me. I hope that wasn't too obvious. D (owner of j). edit for typo quote: Has anyone been in this situation before? I doubt it. there's only 7 billion of us. quote: I would rather avoid the obvious answers, if possible, (Hah! Easy! kick her to the curb and go after what you want!) as I do love her very much, and I don't simply want to be rid of her because she isn't perfectly what I want right now, because really, I don't quite know. As honest as I can be... Am I ready for D/s? I don't know. I hope I am, but I will not know until I am try. I do know that what being dominant means to me, may not be what being dominant means to someone else. Am I looking for a D/s? Maybe, again, I don't really know. I know I don't want a Vanilla relationship, but I do not know exactly how far I want to, or can actually handle, taking it. Could I really be in search of M/s? Possibly, again, I don't know. I don't have the experience neccessary to answer my own question, hence why I am asking here. How did any of you, Dom/me's or Master/Mistresses, finally come to the decision that you wanted to be what you are? and not something else...

ScooterTrash -> RE: curious... sub vs. slave? (9/16/2006 4:52:42 AM)
My quick answer, if there really is one, is that most will go into a relationship as a submissive and becoming a slave is something they evolve into. I can't see anyone going into a relationship as a slave, since the trust and understanding necessary is acquired over time. No doubt, mileage may vary, but this is certainly my interpretation of it. Similarly, someone seeking, would likely be seeking a submissive with slave tendancies, since according to my own thoughts, they couldn't be a slave right out of the box.

MrRodgers -> RE: curious... sub vs. slave? (9/16/2006 5:31:39 AM)
LA, once again...you are the 'firstest' with the 'mostest.' It is in fact the definitions and what we mean by the words. Allow me to try to add or shed some more light on this subject. Again, back in the day before these sites, D/s was simply...yes simply all about the connection, sex and the sexual fetishes which often branched out into BDSM. These were relationships that were more about the connection and the play...don't we all play on the way to a relationship ? Well, that's the way it was. Nobody met for the first time before the net with the idea that one was going to be slave and the other a master/mistress...or D/s for that matter until it evolved. Sometimes that relationship turned out to be a M/s affair that wasn't one unless it was a 24/7 live-in love affair or ok, ownership affair and now a whole set of rules were invoked. Collars were given, but we never spoke of collars we just knew that possibility was out there as a goal. We also never spoke of tops/bottoms etc. There were sadists and masochists and those that played (scened). With the net, D/s and M/s have seem to become quite malleable terms meaning just about anything we choose for those terms to really mean. They should not but I understand the need to have at least someway to describe people forming a D/s relationship. Even a BDSM 'relationship' is a D/s affair and given time and patience, M/s could develope into what one might describe as a 24/7 live-in D/s affair.

sharainks -> RE: curious... sub vs. slave? (9/16/2006 5:31:44 AM)
I'm not a master but to me the difference is the slave gives over choices to his/her master after careful negotiation about what that will look like to them both. The submissive often makes limits about what parts of their life they are willing to allow a dominant control over. IE they will retain control over their finances, career decisions, and the raising of their unmentionables.

MasterJanus01 -> RE: curious... sub vs. slave? (9/16/2006 10:58:55 AM)
Experience tells me that the earlier posts were indeed correct. The definition of sub or slave is one that truly is defined by introspection. My belief has always been that a sub gives of herself in many of the same ways as a slave. The difference here is in degrees, in that a sub has choices and a slave does not. Defining someone as a sub or slave before really exploring the lifestyle would cause confusion from the outset. Why not first start out with a sub progessing to the point that you are confident the next level of slavery is truly what they seek. A sub can change the outlook on her life at anytime and become a slave. It would seem to me that you are hung up on the technical terms that so many try to resolve at the beginning without first exploring what they desire to be or want. A good example of this is labeling. For example looking at your picture tells me you are a male. It tells me nothing about you otherwise, should I cleverly define you as a Dom or maybe a straight guy looking for a vanilla straight girl? You cannot read the book by its cover so its best to take it page by page to its final conclusion.

mystiquenz -> RE: curious... sub vs. slave? (9/16/2006 2:23:58 PM)
It seems with respect, that you have a lot of unanswered questions that only you can answer for yourself. For some of us girls, and i can only speak for myself, there is not a graduating scale in my opinion, you do not start off as a bottom, and then graduate to submissive and then wow, you have finally made it and are given a slave badge! I believe it depends on the relationship and the two people involved. You have been given some very practical.advice, so maybe it's time for you to retreat and absorb it. I think you need to reflect for a bit, and find your comfort level ... and this girl wishes you well.

DivaDuchess -> RE: curious... sub vs. slave? (9/16/2006 9:15:41 PM)
I was born this way ... I was always the over achiever type of person. I never let anything stand in my way, often seeming a bit ... cold hearted. My Husband is the same way with much the same background. I guess We as a Dom/Domme Couple just find the life/lovestyle ... comfortable and more in line with who We are. As for the difference between slave and sub ... it's not black and white. A slave is just what the word means ... owned, a possession. A sub is not owned, very seldom collared. They usually have 'day jobs' while most slaves serve the home. A sub is often not 24/7 where a slave is. Then there are the safewords. Though I have seen and used them on both subs and slaves. Much of it is the level of service the slave or sub gives. Is it total or ... more defined and boxed in? Just my two cents though ... everyone is different. I use my definitions to guide Us in our search.

MistressMelissa -> RE: curious... sub vs. slave? (9/17/2006 12:05:31 PM)
Horadell, We are but a collection of our nature and our experiences. We are, who we are. There is a process, some call it maturity, others may call it self acceptance. You have to stop and look inward. You need to see who you are, what you are, and what you want. I can't be anything but myself. It has taken me 40 some years to understand and embrace who and what I am. It is why some feel that a 19 year old might be a top, but they are probably not a master. There are forces within each of us that we ignore or push aside. Until we can take them out and examine them, we will never know who we really are. If you can not accept the flaws within yourself, how can you accept and understand the flaws found in others? In the movie Field of Dreams it was said; "Build it and they will come". Being a dominant is similar. When we have learned who and what we are, having mastered ourselves, the ones we seek will be drawn to us. You know of the people I speak. You know them for what they are the minute they enter a room. Likewise, little ones know and sense them as well. That is how you find them. As for wanting a sub or a slave? You need to know what size you are before you buy a new coat. Since you would not buy new clothes if you did not know your size. So why would you look for a partner if you did not know who you are? The hardest thing we do, is to control ourselves.

Wolfie648 -> RE: curious... sub vs. slave? (9/17/2006 11:55:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Horadell How does someone make the determination that they would rather have a slave than a submissive, or submissive rather than slave? Subs under my jurisdiction anger me. Slaves don't. Yeh it took a few subs to figure this out (thankfully that was back when I was a nice guy ;-) D (owner of j).

JarlWilliam -> RE: curious... sub vs. slave? (9/18/2006 9:54:13 PM)
its as simple as this, a submissive has rights, and hold the keys to the situation at hand even if she is giving up control. Aka a safe word. Slaves on the other hand give up the right to have rights. Some cannot handle giving up that much control, others cant imagine a life without being slave. It comes down to the girl and how she serves. Wills

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