Serve AND Love? (Full Version)

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Vampyrefledgling -> Serve AND Love? (7/31/2007 4:28:45 PM)

Masters,

I am quite new to this world of BDSM and forgive me if this question seems naive. I have been struck by an interesting dichotymy of late and am wondering how exactly the ideas of service, punishment and love. We subs serve, to the best of our ability. We follow the rules of our masters and when we make mistakes, we accept the consequences of our actions and are punished accordingly.

My question is, do Masters love their sub/slave because of the service (the action itself), or is the love a result of the sub/slave's desire to serve? Is the difference clear?

I know, the question is simple. I simply wish to better understand the mind of a Master.

Many thanks,
~Fledgling



AquaticSub -> RE: Serve AND Love? (7/31/2007 4:31:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vampyrefledgling

My question is, do Masters love their sub/slave because of the service (the action itself), or is the love a result of the sub/slave's desire to serve? Is the difference clear?



For Valyraen, the answer is neither. He loves me because of who I am and he fell in love with me before I was ever his Kitten and property. I don't know about what is most common reason, but I suspect that we are not the only couple this holds true for.



Rockwell -> RE: Serve AND Love? (7/31/2007 4:35:46 PM)

If I love someone it is because I love them as a person.

That we may have a satisfying dynamic is icing on the cake, so to speak.

Though, if I had to answer your question I'd say it is the desire to serve more than the action.
But, I could argue that the opposite way in a spin. It is not really something to worry about.

Happy travelling, Zac



obis -> RE: Serve AND Love? (7/31/2007 4:38:34 PM)

I love the person. I appreciate the service, and would love them (and have loved) even if they had no interest in D/s. I don't get the sense from most of the people I've met in the community over the years that I'm unusual -- to the contrary, love between both partners seems to be the norm in long term D/s relationships.

I know I would have trouble controlling someone for more than a while if there were no real love, no matter how well they served. Any relationship takes work, and without the reward of love, I don't think the service would be enough to justify the work I'd put into her.

All that said, I think what you're asking is whether the desire/intent to serve is more important than the actual service, and I'd say that is the case for most people. Unless the service itself is just incorrigably bad (in which case I would question the desire, since they'd have to ignore continuous correction), what i appreciate is the care behind the actions. So don't worry about screwing up when starting out (in case that's part of the motivation behind asking), as long as you have the desire, anyone worth serving will happily help you meet that goal.



MagiksSlave -> RE: Serve AND Love? (7/31/2007 5:27:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vampyrefledgling

My question is, do Masters love their sub/slave because of the service (the action itself), or is the love a result of the sub/slave's desire to serve? Is the difference clear?





For Valyraen, the answer is neither. He loves me because of who I am and he fell in love with me before I was ever his Kitten and property. I don't know about what is most common reason, but I suspect that we are not the only couple this holds true for.


Exatly my thoughts. If Master and I didnt love eachother or care about eachother for more then just the servise I offerd (or for me the Domanence he gave) then right now we woud be screwed royaly. Right now our M/s relationship is for a lack of better words "sick" for reasons beyond eather of our controll, and we have turned it down to the barest minimum if he only loved me for my servise then right now all would be lost. It is because it is so much more then just that, that we can step out of our M/s shoes and still have a relationship and still care about eachother. It is because we care for eachother on a personal level and not just the roles we played that our reltaionship can be saved

ms



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Serve AND Love? (7/31/2007 5:33:43 PM)

Both, neither, yes and no.

Depends on the relationship.  If you can imagine it, it's out there.

http://www.collarchat.com/m_651231/mpage_1/key_love/tm.htm#651253
What's love got to do with it?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_632033/mpage_1/key_love/tm.htm#632105
Loving your property

http://www.collarchat.com/m_609494/mpage_2/key_love/tm.htm#609934
Ownership and Love

http://www.collarchat.com/m_545462/mpage_1/key_love/tm.htm#545482
What does love got to do with it?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_538921/mpage_1/key_love/tm.htm#538965
The Loving Dom

http://www.collarchat.com/m_499831/mpage_1/key_love/tm.htm#499881
Don't fall in love with your dom

http://www.collarchat.com/m_477568/mpage_3/key_love/tm.htm#484997
How common is it to fall in love with a submissive or dominant?

http://www.collarchat.com/tm.asp?m=423736&mpage=1&key=love&#423879
Love and Ms

http://www.collarchat.com/m_282567/mpage_1/key_love/tm.htm#282615
submissive/slave romantic love

http://www.collarchat.com/m_269031/mpage_1/key_love%252Csubmission/tm.htm#269120
Falling in love with Mistress

http://www.collarchat.com/m_248492/mpage_1/key_love/tm.htm#248492
true love in a relationship

http://www.collarchat.com/m_236486/mpage_1/key_love/tm.htm#236486
balancing commitment and love

http://www.collarchat.com/m_199915/mpage_1/key_love/tm.htm#199915
love in bdsm

http://www.collarchat.com/m_166085/mpage_1/key_love/tm.htm#166085
love and D/s

http://www.collarchat.com/m_65043/mpage_1/key_love/tm.htm#65043
love and bdsm (the unfettered heart)

http://www.collarchat.com/m_150281/mpage_1/key_love/tm.htm#150281
Is it normal to fall in love with your dom during training?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_125880/mpage_1/key_love/tm.htm#125880
not allowed to love him, what do I do?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_119832/mpage_1/key_love/tm.htm#119832
being owned or being loved

http://www.collarchat.com/m_97124/mpage_1/key_love/tm.htm#97124
subs/masochists and love

http://www.collarchat.com/m_31285/mpage_1/key_love/tm.htm#31285
can love get in the way?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_14998/mpage_1/key_love/tm.htm#14998
love in d/s

http://www.collarchat.com/m_2491/mpage_1/key_love/tm.htm#2491
is love important in a relationship?



earthycouple -> RE: Serve AND Love? (7/31/2007 5:41:41 PM)

I love him because he's beautiful. I love him because we click.  I love him because he loves me.  I love him because together we are fulfilled.  I love him because he makes me smile.  I will not stop loving him if he is not in my service.  I will not stop loving him if he no longer desires to serve period.  He is who he is without his service to me.  Service to me only adds frosting to my cake. *S*



SirMIkeSD -> RE: Serve AND Love? (7/31/2007 5:49:15 PM)

Yes, No, Both, Neither - Not to sound cold here, but as much as I love my boy if he were to opt out of the D/s life (like that would every happen) I would not be with him anymore.  While my love for him has nothing to do with the D/s, I would just find the relationship not fulfilling and would be unhappy, so sooner or later it would fall apart.  Now if I had entered into this without D/s that would be different, but it has been D/s since a couple weeks after meeting.

Mike




Kinkypupper -> RE: Serve AND Love? (7/31/2007 5:55:04 PM)

Neither



beargonewild -> RE: Serve AND Love? (7/31/2007 6:11:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vampyrefledgling

Masters,

My question is, do Masters love their sub/slave because of the service (the action itself), or is the love a result of the sub/slave's desire to serve? Is the difference clear?

I know, the question is simple. I simply wish to better understand the mind of a Master.

Many thanks,
~Fledgling


In my opinion, the answer is and can be a combination of both and neither. For myself,  the love I'd have for a sub would be based upon that person first, his desire to serve me would enhance the bonding between us. It may be different for others and how they desire to conduct their relationship.



Valyraen -> RE: Serve AND Love? (7/31/2007 8:54:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vampyrefledgling

Masters,

I am quite new to this world of BDSM and forgive me if this question seems naive. I have been struck by an interesting dichotymy of late and am wondering how exactly the ideas of service, punishment and love. We subs serve, to the best of our ability. We follow the rules of our masters and when we make mistakes, we accept the consequences of our actions and are punished accordingly.

My question is, do Masters love their sub/slave because of the service (the action itself), or is the love a result of the sub/slave's desire to serve? Is the difference clear?

I know, the question is simple. I simply wish to better understand the mind of a Master.

Many thanks,
~Fledgling


If you'll pardon the flippancy for a moment, trying to understand the mindset of someone whose perspective is radically different from your own is about as easy as learning to fly with a pair of sheet-metal wings and a few yards of duct tape. I've tried putting myself in Kitten's head a few times now, and all I end up with is a raging headache when the paradigms don't mesh.

As to answering your question... there are d/s relationships that are based on service, with love never entering into the equation. And, obviously, there are very loving relationships that don't contain any aspect of d/s or BDSM. I don't love Aqua for her service, or because she wants to serve me... I love Aqua for Aqua.

In addition, any answer you're likely to get, even one that's an affirmative to either of your questions, is by nature subjective. We're such an incredibly diverse crowd - and I mean all of us BDSM folk - that generalizations simply don't fit. There's no generic dominant mindset, just as there's no generic submissive mindset - the way that I handle Aqua might be incredibly rough to some, and far too refined for others. As with so many things in the lifestyle, frustragingly, it's all subjective.



Estring -> RE: Serve AND Love? (7/31/2007 11:14:53 PM)

I think in my case I love my slave because she is a beautiful woman inside and out. Part of that beauty is her submission to me. That does make her even more special to me.



Keshia1969 -> RE: Serve AND Love? (7/31/2007 11:32:04 PM)

Greetings everyone
human nature indicaates there is a place for love in a Master/slave relatinship's,but not necessarily with the same definitions. a Master need not be a lover,and neighter his slave his peer, there is no pretense of equality,nor the illusion romance often provides of being in love with who we want to see,instead of reality of who that person is.

i have been onslaved by Master's whom i did not love me, and Master's who did.
in fact ,it surprised me that i gave just as deeply, devotedly, and soulfully to the Master's who told me they do not ,and would not love me as i gave to the Master's who loved me .in my mind ,the giving of love is completely separate from being the reci cipient of love , and surrender can co-exist with emotions , but they are not necessary to eachother .

i would not base my slavery to someone else solely on love ,because to me ,  that is conditional on my loving him in order for him to have any power over me , i do not beleive surrender is conditional when it occurs -and i do not think surrender occurs as often as falling in and out of love . in some ways , i view surrender as" beyond love" if such a thing were possible.

~~~well wishes and warm wishes~~~
keshia1969



chey -> RE: Serve AND Love? (8/1/2007 6:40:58 AM)

I understand what you are saying about serving someone you do not love. This is where we all have to figure out who we are and what we need. And why everyone has a different opinion, what works for one won't work for another.

Mostly though I just wanted to comment on this statement: and i do not think surrender occurs as often as falling in and out of love
Maybe there is something wrong with me but I do not fall in love easily. I find myself infatuated maybe, and I can love someone as a person and care about them but......sadly I have not been "IN LOVE" with many men. I guess for that reason I had a hard time wrapping my head around the statement.



BRNaughtyAngel -> RE: Serve AND Love? (8/1/2007 7:51:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Valyraen

If you'll pardon the flippancy for a moment, trying to understand the mindset of someone whose perspective is radically different from your own is about as easy as learning to fly with a pair of sheet-metal wings and a few yards of duct tape. I've tried putting myself in Kitten's head a few times now, and all I end up with is a raging headache when the paradigms don't mesh.



[sm=biggrin.gif]

Thanks for the giggle.   That'll learn ya not to go trying figure out us female submissive types! [;)]



Vampyrefledgling -> RE: Serve AND Love? (8/1/2007 4:39:13 PM)

Thank you for your responses.

Allow me to tax you furthur....

Am I less submissive if I find myself unable to serve a Master who I know does not love me? If I make that love a contingency of my service, am I still submissive, in the true sense of the word?

~Fledgling



earthycouple -> RE: Serve AND Love? (8/1/2007 4:51:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vampyrefledgling

Thank you for your responses.

Allow me to tax you furthur....

Am I less submissive if I find myself unable to serve a Master who I know does not love me? If I make that love a contingency of my service, am I still submissive, in the true sense of the word?

~Fledgling


While I have play partners, I don't have random play partners.  Those I have, I care very much for...I'm just as happy and pleased by enjoying a meal, going to a movie or taking them to the spanking bench...If I don't feel something for them I can't have them.  I must click and well, to an extent love them.  Those who are potentially going to live in, oh without a doubt I must love.  I simply don't want a service boy who I can't honestly say I feel is a member of my family.  Robert, before he left...well it is no secret here, I loved him and do still love him today more than I thought possible.  I only hope any further relationships will find love like this for me. 

Yes, you are still submissive in YOUR sense of the word.  Strike true from your vocabulary.  You are still submissive in my sense of the word to and I bet I'm not the only one who thinks so.  What matters is you need to find someone who clicks with your ideals and his with yours!

Good Luck, OP.



BrutalMasterOne -> RE: Serve AND Love? (8/1/2007 4:53:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vampyrefledgling

Thank you for your responses.

Allow me to tax you furthur....

Am I less submissive if I find myself unable to serve a Master who I know does not love me? If I make that love a contingency of my service, am I still submissive, in the true sense of the word?

~Fledgling

No you are not less of a submissive, if you feel you are submissive then you are, at least for you. The difficulty comes in the words "Master and slave" they mean different things to different people. As for "love?" That is a whole different matter.
 
When we speak of "love" we are really speaking about "romantic love" which has only existed as a concept for about four to five hundred years. Not being able to serve a Master who does not love you says more about who and what you are then about service, per se.
 
As a Master I have often had slaves whom I did not love. HOWEVER, I did and do care for them, cherish them and try to make their lives worthwhile and exciting. Many women (and some men too) oftentimes use "love" as a weapon. There is the old, "You wouldn't do XXX if you loved me." or the other idea of "how can you want me to do THAT if you love me?" sorts of manipulations.
 
It all depends pretty much what you are looking for in life and in relationships.



BRNaughtyAngel -> RE: Serve AND Love? (8/1/2007 4:55:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vampyrefledgling

Thank you for your responses.

Allow me to tax you furthur....

Am I less submissive if I find myself unable to serve a Master who I know does not love me? If I make that love a contingency of my service, am I still submissive, in the true sense of the word?

~Fledgling


Dominance and submission have nothing, something and everything to do with love, depending on the individual and the relationship dynamic. 

If you don't feel you can serve without love, then don't do it.  However, I'd ask you how are you going to handle this?  Are you just going to require that you vanilla date a dominant until the point you know he loves you, and only then will you submit to him?  What if it takes many, many months or a year or longer?  Not everyone falls in love quickly. 

There are plenty of people here on both sides of the kneel who will tell you they love the person(s) they are in a relationship with.  There are others who will tell you they neither require or even want love in their relationship. 

I personally wanted and needed love, but I wasn't going to hold back my submission to Him until one or both of us said the L word.  8 months later, after many trials and tribulations, I realized that I do love Him and told Him so.  His response was that 'at this time' he doesn't love me, but loves owning me.  Will that always be enough for me if He never loves me?  I dunno..... For now, I am just happy knowing that He accepts my love for Him, as well as my submission.

Good luck to you!



DiurnalVampire -> RE: Serve AND Love? (8/1/2007 4:56:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vampyrefledgling
My question is, do Masters love their sub/slave because of the service (the action itself), or is the love a result of the sub/slave's desire to serve? Is the difference clear?


I dont know about anyone else, but I love my boys because of who they are, not having anything to do with their service. I cannot be served by someone who I do not enjoy and have feelings for,and eventually love. So, no, your not less submissive if you wish to be loved.  Just like I am not less dominant becasue I love my boys.

DV



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