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Formal Training and Hardlines - 3/15/2007 8:43:32 AM

FiveohsBabygirl

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Joined: 7/20/2006
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. I have come on line to learn and grow my knowledge of what is expected and what is involved with a Master/Slave relationship.I was of the understanding that sub/slaves have certain rights- that they can have hardlines and limits. Master disagrees and says I need to submit to him-it is what he wants and thats all that matters-
We need some information on what formal training involves also. Is there a place for my master to learn? Is there some sort of formal list by which he can train me?
Thank you for looking at this- I hope it makes sense to someone out there :) FiveOhsBaby Girl

Post #: 1

RE: Formal Training and Hardlines - 3/15/2007 8:54:44 AM

Kinkypupper

Posts: 713
Joined: 9/26/2004
From: Portland oregon
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A "slave" only has those rights that her Master allows.

However this is not "Gor" so common sence applys :-)

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A Sensual Touch
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(in reply to FiveohsBabygirl)

Post #: 2

RE: Formal Training and Hardlines - 3/15/2007 8:56:41 AM

LuckyAlbatross

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Joined: 10/25/2005
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We choose the relationship we get into- that choice is how we decide what our limits are. Once you have agreed to the relationship, you agree to its expectations. Obviously the two of you have not come to an agreement on expectations so until that is done, you cannot say for sure what will and will not happen.

Slave does not mean "do whatever I tell you do because we happen to be together" it means "You chose this relationship with me knowing full well what it entails because it suits you"

As well, master does not mean "I get to order you to do whatever I want and if you don't obey, you're bad" it means "I chose this relationship with someone knowing full well what I wanted, knowing full well that they accepted with an informed free choice"

Otherwise, you cuold just be a slave to any random person who walked by. The notion of free choice is what allows you the opportunity to stay out of situations which will not serve you and you should embrace it.

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(in reply to FiveohsBabygirl)

Post #: 3

RE: Formal Training and Hardlines - 3/15/2007 9:00:08 AM

mstrjx

Posts: 2045
Joined: 11/27/2005
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There's times I like being the first to respond - this isn't one of them.

There can be debate about whether a slave should be entitled to limits or not. My comment on that would be that many people 'assume' whatever the Master/Mistress' limits are. This would imply that there are limits, they are just not yours. You could imply from that that your choice of a partner should include making certain that your limits and his/hers are compatible.

That your Master has to 'learn' Mastering makes what I said above versus what you said in your post a telling difference between fantasy and how most people opt to live their lives.

Also, 'training' is often 'to taste', which is to say that while I could give what I feel to be seemingly-standard positions/activities/etc., those practices aren't universal for every owner.

Good luck.

Jeff

_____________________________

Know thyself. It's the best gift you can ever give yourself.

(in reply to FiveohsBabygirl)

Post #: 4

RE: Formal Training and Hardlines - 3/15/2007 9:02:10 AM

MasterFireMaam

Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
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There are many books from which he can take things that work and leave the rest.

Books I recommend: Ties that Bind by Guy Baldwin, slavecraft also by Guy Baldwin, The Master’s Manual by Jack Rinella, Becoming a slave, also by Jack Rinella, to Love, to Obey, to Serve by Viola Johnson and Different Loving by William and Gloria Brame.

I also recommend the books of the Ms Studies collection: http://www.goodboner.com/ms.html.

As for limits and such, whether or not you have them is something you have to work out between the two of you. Some people feel that the slave is always allowed limits...others believe that the slave simply obeys. Both are valid ways of conducting a relationship. In my observation however, a slave does have limits, most, but not all, of those relationships that look like they don't have any or say that they don't have any are usually between two people who's limits are so well matched, the areas of discord never or rarely come up.

Master Fire

_____________________________

The power of who we are can be intoxicating. The power of who we could be is humbling.
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Ms Relationship Books
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(in reply to FiveohsBabygirl)

Post #: 5

RE: Formal Training and Hardlines - 3/15/2007 9:02:35 AM

toservez

Posts: 1733
Joined: 9/7/2006
From: All over now in Minnesota
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Your relationship is yours and yours alone. There is no right way, just whatever way it works for both of you to be happy and healthy. That being said most here will tell you of course a slave has rights and can have limits. It is consensual non consent and your biggest right is if the relationship does not work for you to just walk away. Boundaries and limits have to be discussed and agreed on. That to me would be a basic right and basic 101 concept and part of the foundation of a healthy relationship.

Generally speaking if both of you are committed to a strong M/s relationship then my .02 opinion you are talking about giving up as much power and control as both of you can handle and still be happy and fulfilled and both of you flourish. The limits you should have as absolutes are anything that will cause you harm either mentally or physically and things that would cause damage to the relationship through your own eyes. Your perception is your reality and not something your partner can theorize away from you.

I would suggests he visit this message board, I think some others can recommend some excellent books to read and many websites and blogs can be found showing how other people live this in real life.

_____________________________

I am sorry I do not fit Webster's defintion of a slave but thankfully my Master is not Webster.

"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned." - H.H. The 14th Dalai Lama

(in reply to FiveohsBabygirl)

Post #: 6

RE: Formal Training and Hardlines - 3/15/2007 10:49:47 AM

LadyHugs

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Joined: 1/1/2004
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Dear FiveohsBabygirl, Ladies and Gentlemen;

Formal Training is open to what is 'formal' in one's mind and or measures/standards of what would be formal.

What is difficult is understanding what is formal in my mind's eyes, such as having rituals, protocols, etiquette 'in house' and a set for in vanilla public are much the same but, not exactly.

My slaves are human and will have limits. Some limits haven't manifested yet, as they haven't been reached; as in life and in relationships--they grow and live. It is folly to have, as a Master; the attitude and or mindset that it is 'all my way and all me.' In life's experiences as a Master/Mistress/Dominant it is about 'us.' There is an energy and power exchange back and forth. If you aren't having equal fun, joy, happiness it gets to be miserable. Mastering a slave has many responsibilities to it, just as a slave has responsibilities. But, the number one rule for both Master, Mistress and or slave -- Is that their first duty above all others, is to protect themselves from physical, mental, emotional and spiritual harm--even from their own Master/slave.

I would recommend consideration of attending either Butchmann's Academy and or Master Taino's Training Academy. It will give anybody, regardless of experience a new way of looking at things and deals mainly with the M/s dynamic. I highly recommend looking at their Web sites and read their philosophies.

Another recommendation would be, the consideration in attending the Master/slave Conference. It is my belief there are several M/s conferences and there will be a Master/slave conference in Washington, DC in the later weeks of July, 2007. There are other conferences peppered throughout the USA so, I would do a web search as to what might be closer to home. Conferences have workshops that often have great benefit as well as meeting real people who live and or have lived the M/s lifestyle.

Both your Master and you will have to sit down and make a list per se, of what goals in the relationship you both want, what things you will absolutely not do, such as selling your kids to the highest bidder; what things you haven't tried and may want to try. It really is a time to honestly state each other's philosophies. What is your life going to be like, will he want additional slaves, will he kick you to the curb if you cannot be physically able to serve, so-- do ask questions as if you are about to enter a business deal--although its 'personal' it is 'personal business' and you need to know what the answers to all the 'what if' questions now before regrets in not asking.

Just some thoughts.

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs

(in reply to FiveohsBabygirl)

Post #: 7

RE: Formal Training and Hardlines - 3/15/2007 11:07:40 AM

SirDominic

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fiveohs, let me state this as plainly as I can. You have a right to limits and a right to accept a relationship with no limits. That decision is YOURS. If you are not comfortable with a no limits relationship, this is not the Master for you. If you know what your hard limits are, you need to tell them to your Master. If he insists that you don't have any right to tell him your limits, run the other way and don't look back.

I find this particularly troubling because you are so new. To expect a newbie to accept a no limits relationship is, quite frankly, offensive. Most probably you don't even know what your limits are.

Several have suggested how your Master can learn more about his end of the relationship. But regardless of that, if he still wants you to have no limits, I would dissociate from him until you learn more about where your comfort zones are in a fetish relationship.

I see from your profile that he is, again, demanding something of you you have zero experience in. Unless you are really comfortable with the idea of being pushed into situations where you have no idea whether you are ready for them or not, I would at the very least, put the relationship with this Master on hold.

Don't ever let anyone tell you being a slave means you have no rights.
Namaste, Sir Dominic

_____________________________

You teach best what you have lived.

(in reply to FiveohsBabygirl)

Post #: 8

RE: Formal Training and Hardlines - 3/15/2007 11:46:25 AM

FiveohsBabygirl

Posts: 2
Joined: 7/20/2006
Status: offline

Thank you's to all who took the time to share their opinion on the questions that I have.
Much of it makes perfect sense and I will encourage my Master to visit here and will also look at the books and forums that were suggested.
We are very suited for each other and decided to discover this lifestyle together...but we have gotten hung up on a couple of things- one of which Sir Dominic pointed out was on my profile.
I long to serve my Master in quite alot of ways- but at this time- I am not willing to share him....
Anyway...Thank you again for all your help- I will try to post on here occasionally so you can get to know me- instead of just being a ghost all the time:)
Warmly, FiveOhsBabyGirl

(in reply to SirDominic)

Post #: 9

RE: Formal Training and Hardlines - 3/15/2007 12:46:53 PM

Celeste43

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From: NYS
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What he says works only if you have a clear understanding of what he may or may not want. Telling a newbie that she has to submit no matter what is all too often a way for a dom to try to get a harem. He wants this female and he knows she isn't interested in a poly relationship so he lies by omission and convinces her she isn't a true submissive if she has limits. Then he goes out and tomcats all over town and tells her she hasn't any choice but to agree and to hell with her worrying about STD's.

You have as much right to your limits as he does. Personally I think it's a lot better to walk ahead of having my limits trampled on instead of after so I did insist on discussing possible scenarios. Anyone who wouldn't do so was someone I wouldn't possibly have been with. There are too many cases of women forced to undergo a bi experience despite having no inclination and feeling betrayed and hurt afterwards to such a degree that the relationship then ended. Me, I would as I said rather have ended it before I was forced to break my moral code.

(in reply to FiveohsBabygirl)

Post #: 10

RE: Formal Training and Hardlines - 3/15/2007 2:33:45 PM

MadRabbit

Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
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Everyone has limits. Are you willing to die for your master's pleasure? Then death is a limit. The notion that a slave has no limits in a no limit relationship is silly. The limits dont just magically disapear. If you CANT do scat, then you cant do scat.

People have twisted perspectives on this IN MY OPINION(!!!!). They view a no limit relationship as "Ok yippee I can make a slave eat shit everyday and have sex with my dog and she cant say no because she's a slave!". To me, a no limit relationship means they have enough trust in me and my benevolance that I wont have them eat shit or fuck a dog when they CAN'T do it. Therefore, they are able to surrender to me completely without holding back. My power has no limits, not the slave.

So, yes, I would have the power to do whatever I want with a no limit slave, but having power comes with a degree of responsibility to those you have power over. Its not simply about the indulgence of that power. Unfortanely, this isnt something that isnt always understood which is why we live in a society where power is abused constantly....

And its even more unfortanate when this spills over into the D/S world. I want to slap all the pseudo masters who think they can do whatever they want to a slave without taking into consideration their interests or needs simply because they are a slave and have no limits.

This is MY opinion and how I view things.

< Message edited by MadRabbit -- 3/15/2007 2:37:57 PM >

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(in reply to FiveohsBabygirl)

Post #: 11

RE: Formal Training and Hardlines - 3/15/2007 2:43:27 PM

bandit25

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Joined: 6/18/2005
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You two are new to this...you want limits, he says you can't have any and he wants to see you with another woman? It's one thing to discover the lifestyle together...but I think your first discovery should be something other than a bisexual experience.

(in reply to FiveohsBabygirl)

Post #: 12

RE: Formal Training and Hardlines - 3/15/2007 2:59:29 PM

DomDrewLA

Posts: 1
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

It is important to establish guidelines as part of the relationship... after all a D/s relationship is foremost a relationship... trust, openness and mutual respect apply. In my experience a sub is one who may contribute to her servitude while a slave serves at her Master's will. For One to say, you are slave and do all I say seems abit unrealistic in establishing that bond of trust and mutual respect. That being said, the more a relationship deepens the more a relationship becomes more Master/slave due to the deeper levels of trust, mutual respect and communication.

(in reply to FiveohsBabygirl)

Post #: 13

RE: Formal Training and Hardlines - 3/15/2007 4:28:27 PM

hisannabelle

Posts: 1992
Joined: 12/3/2006
From: Tallahassee, FL, USA
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i think it is more common, by many people's definitions of submissive and slave, for submissives to have limits but slaves not to. and by not having limits, as someone who identifies as a slave (and identifies without limits), i am referring to not having limits beyond the limits of your dominant...meaning, i would not get involved with someone who thinks telling me to jump off a bridge is a good test of my obedience. personally, i am comfortable without limits (except for His), because i trust Him to act in my best interests.

that said, regardless of what you identify as, you BOTH have the right to have limits, or not. you get to have what kind of relationship you want. if YOU want limits, and HE does not, that does not make you any less submissive, it just means you either need to come to a compromise or that maybe you're just not the right fit. on the other hand, maybe you'll get to a point where limits will not be so important to you, or maybe he'll get over the notion that you having limits doesn't make you ultimately obedient, or whatever the issues behind those choices are. it's something you two have to discuss between yourselves, really. i would caution you to keep in the back of your mind that anyone who tells you having limits makes you less of a submissive, especially when limits are something that instictively feels important to you, probably isn't worth your time.

as far as training, we personally have never had much use for formal training. we don't generally play in formal settings or anything like that, and our relationship is not particularly ritualized. He has trained me to certain things, but it's been very informal and as things come up. i think masterfire's book list is pretty good - i'd also recommend possibly checking out "the path of service: guideposts for excellence" by christina parker (do a google search - don't think you can get it through amazon). i have this one and it seems very useful for training, although i personally have not completed the book myself.

good luck to you both.

(in reply to DomDrewLA)

Post #: 14

RE: Formal Training and Hardlines - 3/15/2007 4:34:53 PM

dawntreader

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LadyHugs,

i really enjoy reading your posts...i learn something new with every one of them

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Flobots

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RE: Formal Training and Hardlines - 3/15/2007 4:49:04 PM

Lashra

Posts: 4900
Joined: 2/9/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirDominic

fiveohs, let me state this as plainly as I can. You have a right to limits and a right to accept a relationship with no limits. That decision is YOURS. If you are not comfortable with a no limits relationship, this is not the Master for you. If you know what your hard limits are, you need to tell them to your Master. If he insists that you don't have any right to tell him your limits, run the other way and don't look back.

I find this particularly troubling because you are so new. To expect a newbie to accept a no limits relationship is, quite frankly, offensive. Most probably you don't even know what your limits are.

Several have suggested how your Master can learn more about his end of the relationship. But regardless of that, if he still wants you to have no limits, I would dissociate from him until you learn more about where your comfort zones are in a fetish relationship.

I see from your profile that he is, again, demanding something of you you have zero experience in. Unless you are really comfortable with the idea of being pushed into situations where you have no idea whether you are ready for them or not, I would at the very least, put the relationship with this Master on hold.

Don't ever let anyone tell you being a slave means you have no rights.
Namaste, Sir Dominic

Wonderfully said Sir Dominic, I agree totally with what you've said.

~Lashra

_____________________________

“We can never judge the lives of others, because each person knows only their own pain and renunciation. It's one thing to feel that you are on the right path, but it's another to think that yours is the only path.”

(in reply to SirDominic)

Post #: 16

RE: Formal Training and Hardlines - 3/15/2007 5:17:59 PM

MagiksSlave

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There is no such thing as formal training to my knoladge and no rules just like there is no one true way. If you have limits you want to keep and your Master doesnt want you to then some comunication was not done befor he became your Master and you may not be compatable. You have every right to your limits but ones you exept a collar from a Master your rights are only what you negotiated befor and it doesnt seem you have done that yet.

Magik's slave

_____________________________

If you’re going through hell keep on moving
don't slow down
if you’re scared dont show it
you might get out
before the devil even knows your there.

-Rodney Atkins-

(in reply to Lashra)

Post #: 17

RE: Formal Training and Hardlines - 3/15/2007 5:26:41 PM

catize

Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
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Master and I were friends first, then we were play partners and now we are Master/slave.
I have limits. They are my limits, not his. He was aware of them from the beginning and still wanted this M/s relationship.
We talked a lot before we were play partners. We talked even more before deciding to try M/s. Discussion and agreement should take place before anything else; it is vital to a workable dynamic.

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
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(in reply to FiveohsBabygirl)

Post #: 18

RE: Formal Training and Hardlines - 3/15/2007 5:38:28 PM

goodpet

Posts: 458
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http://masterslavetraining.org/home.htm

They have four day for Masters, male slave and femal slave. This is not a "how" but more intellectual insight and self realization with some how to added in. It is very well done. Not too costly and well worth it for folks on the journey. Not just for newbies also.

(in reply to catize)

Post #: 19

RE: Formal Training and Hardlines - 3/16/2007 1:19:47 AM

obey1

Posts: 227
Joined: 11/26/2005
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I agree with both SirDominic and MadRabbit.

A slave is not well represented within our society. The squeaky wheel gets the oil and so we always end our opinions with this is MY opinion.....

Being a newbie is one thing. Being a newbie to slavery is quite another. If you have not experienced being a submissive then it is nearly or totally impossible for you to become a slave at the drop of a hat and a handshake. It will not work and you will be back here in tears asking us what went wrong?

Let me put it a bit clearer: Hollywood power couples such as Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt, Tom Cruise and Katie Holmes, etc. have agents and lawyers. They are at the top, very tippity top top top topmost part of their industry yet they need representatives to manage their careers and their decisions.

You too as a newbie need a representative. IN MY OPINION you are incapable of knowing all the details that will ensue once you say yes to your master or as has been put before, a perfect stranger. The bible says a three corded rope is not easily broken. That is why you see ropes with three big strands in them intertwined.

You need a personal advisor, manager, lawyer, or someone who is looking out for your best interests as you throw yourself into this new relationship or venture. Your limits need to be discussed as they would be with a therapist (another advisor) to allow you to say, "Hell no I am not eating scat and fucking a dog!!!"

As a student of psychology there are two positions your master can have, the first being that he knows exactly what it is that he wants to push you into. The second is more of a master-malaise where he doesn't quite know yet, but he sure as hell doesn't want you to say "no" when the time comes.....

Before you say yes it is your right to know. If it is a specific fantasy he has you need to base a contract on that fantasy and attempt to fulfil it unto completion at which time the contract will be renegotiated for a new one. If it is a general question of ultimate power, you need a further interview with your master to delve into his psyche of where he is leaning.

I think what most people are expressing here (and in Hollywood) is that no relationship can stand at all when it is subjected to anomalities and (bad, hidden) surprises. I once knew a couple who were happy at expressing their utter devotion to one another except when they were in isolation. In fact, my female boss told me today that I was more of her type than her present husband was. No biggie, she made her choice by law and there are many other fish in the sea. She is not really my type anyway, so the attraction is not mutual.

Don't base your decision on your needs, base your decision on your desires. And hire a 'lawyer' or personal friend to help you sort out the differences between the two before you go become someone's exclusive slave with all rights of property and address. There have been many millionaires cheated out of their own minds when they signed the rights to their innovations to the company that hired them to begin with.

(in reply to goodpet)

Post #: 20

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